After today's sermon on FORGIVENESS ( see below), we had a discussion and then after church someone came up and raised a question that could well lead to another discussion:
This summer, we have seen several examples of horrible, mindless violent acts, the most recent being the shooting at the LA Fitness outside of Pittsburgh. What's going on here? Why are these things happening? What is BREAKING DOWN in the fabric of our culture?
People answer these kinds of questions in different ways:
* Some emphasize the 'personal' i.e. these are circumstances in individual lives and we cannot generalize about these matters.
* Others emphasize the 'sociological' i.e. there are things that have happened within society ( including economic crisis) that make these things more likely....
* Others analyze it in such a way as to emphasize a breakdown that has taken place within both private and public morality...
I've got some opinions on this.....and will share them......but I'd really love to hear yours....
Isn't it great how conversations in church spur on even more conversations?
By the way, if you want to read a book that places these issues front and center, you may want to try Wally Lamb's novel THE HOUR I FIRST BELIEVED.....a fictional piece with Columbine as a central action.....
Talk to you soon-
Pastor Bob
17 comments:
These acts seem to be committed by individuals who in some way feel alienated from society. I suspect resentment and anger lies deep in the heart and brews until they lose complete touch with reality and somehow feel justified in such henious acts. I think some of this is societal- we see cruelties even in what we call humor, some is also most likely due to mental illness as well. We all- especially those of us who call ourselves Christians- need to be kind to one another and to keep a look out and care for and show love towards those who are marginalized. You never know when a gesture of kindness can change someone's life.
People say I'm too forgiving, do you think this is possible?
Is it possible to be too forgiving? .............
Well, I do think that forgiveness can often be misunderstood ....
Actually the book AMISH GRACE deals well w/ this---I would highly recommend it...
I DO think that FORGIVENESS is a central, vital quality in Christian living HOWEVER:
1. allowing oneself to be the victim of abuse is not forgiveness.
2. being unwilling to apply necessary consequences is not forgiveness.
What I am saying is that people misunderstand forgiveness......It's a CHOICE not to CLING TO what one has a moral right to be upset about.
I hope that makes sense...
PB
Here's my attempt to respond to the questions that inspired this post:
I'm uncomfortable with easy answers and generalizations when dealing with complex questions. I have to say though that the phrase WHAT HAS BROKEN DOWN? is a really powerful one....SOMETHING HAS BROKEN DOWN......
It's not as simple as ' a breakdown of the family unit' or 'the loss of common values'.....Even in the 'glory days' of families and closely knit neighborhoods, there were serious psychological and moral problems lurking beneath the surface. The old movie PEYTON PLACE was on to something and a lot of the mythology around ' the way things used to be' is worth questioning and putting under the microscope.
Part of today's tragedy is that with greater awareness of the importance of mental health and presumably increased access to mental health care, so many people continue to sdo such awful things as we witnessed in that story from the health club outside of Pittsburgh last week.
Far too many continue to FEEL some combination of HOPELESS, SHAMEFUL and UNWORTHY. When people experience those feelings consistently and with no exit FEELING LIKELY........terrible things can happen...
This is NOT the whole story...
PB
Watching these 'town hall meetings' around the country, I am struck by the level of anger and the lack of civility. Recognizing fully well that many of these disruptive efforts are organized by opponents of certain policies, it is nonetheless quite scary to see a lot of this behavior.
It seems to me that there is a lot of fear out there and an all too easy willingness to suspend the process of intelligent human dialogue and resort to some pretty scary tactics....
Somehow I think it's all connected to the ' what's breaking down?' question raised Sunday...
Historical note: This isn't new in the life of this country......THere are a lot of examples of this kind of thing from our nation's past....
PB
When I think of this young man and get away from the initial anger I think of the story of Jesus healing of the Gerasene demoniac. Clearly this man was haunted by some pretty horiffic demons. Perhaps they were anger, resentment, bitterness, paranoia. Maybe they were brought on by abuse in childhood, bullying or perhaps just a longstanding series of rejections and not fitting in. We don't know how Jesus healed the demoniac but I imagine it involved acceptance and love of someone who was clearly marginalized and outcast from his community.Sometimes I think there are a lot of forces- "evil" if you would call them that- that that just exist in our world. Our hope as christians- I think-is that love is capable of overcoming any evil no matter how powerful. I think that is what our faith in the cross symbolizes.
I recently attended a lecture series conducted by Ravi Zacharias. Ravi is a gifted evangelical apologist/philosopher. One of the many points Ravi put forth is that the greatest evil every person must contend with is himself or herself. All people are inherently evil. A life without Christ is a meaningless existence vulnerable to any whimsical evil thought that may take root in such a mind. A life without Christ is powerless to live morally before God and man. I know this is true because it used to be me and I see it all around me. As our culture becomes more secular and Godless, is it truly strange that we are experiencing such evil actions? Instead of asking why evil is on the rise, first ponder why it is not more prevalent than it is. How much longer can we honestly ask God to restrain the tide of evil in our land while we are pushing Him out of our public schools, blaspheming His name, idolizing sports, engrossed in pornography, sanctioning the killing of the unborn, and perverting His gift of sexuality? It truly is amazing that we are still here. Our God is longsuffering and merciful and worthy of all praise, honor and glory! However, the day is coming when He will reveal His wrath and exact judgment; it could be tomorrow! What we need to do is the first word that Jesus said in His first sermon - Repent. This is as relevant today as it was 2000 years ago - some things never change.
David
I know that you are taking some of my arguments and turning them back on me.....I appreciate that....
The actions of Jesus in response to violence toward Him are really clear as is the Biblical record about what He taught in this area....
By the way, I do appreciate the depth with which you approach these topics-
PB
Where did you hear Ravi Zacharias? I have heard him on radio and there is no doubt he is very learned and a powerful speaker.
Despite the differences we have on some issues, as expressed over the months on this blog, I'd guess we'd find common ground in our concern for many of the evils that surround us. We'd also probably have some different answers on some issues:
- Public schools often get a bad rap.....There are constitutional limitations regarding religious expression.
- Amen to what you say on idolizing sports and pornography
- One can acknowledge the legality of a pro choice position and still be concerned about a culture that reflexively and amorally/immorally accepts abortion
- I think your comments on sexual perversion would lead to differences of opinion on homosexuality as has been detailed on this blog...
We may interpret impending/potential use of God's wrath differently, but this is the kind of discussion Christians need to have with each other, a natural outgrowth of a spiritual unity in Christ-
PB
Public schools, of which I am a graduate, deserve the bad rap for hiding behind the translucent veil of constitutional limitations. To be fair however, public education today is simply a casualty of generations of secularization. And, it continues to reflect our society's strident denial of our creator. It breaks my heart to see our most vulnerable, the future of our society, caught in the crosshairs of this spiritual warfare; our kids are the ones suffering the most.
Regarding constitutional limitations, did you know that the Bible used to be the primary text book in our public schools? Yes, and it was after our constitution was enacted. Constitutional limitations are subject to interpretation and abuse.
Ravi spoke in upper state NY where I was vacationing recently.
I love Jesus, and I agree that He taught pacifism and clearly demonstrated it throughout His torture and crucifiction. I believe that His behavior during those awesome events is our ideal model for Christian living. I also contend that His actions with the money changers were not pacifistic as we understand the term.
David
I can't support the Bible as primary public school text. I DO think that one cannot learn history or culture with insufficient knowledge of religious history and literature.
It is my belief that it is the rightful role of church communities to promulgate the teachings of Jesus. In doing so, I also think we can educate our young that churches have a mission public schools do not and cannot have....
In defense of public schools, any attempt to transmit what amounts to a 'state religion' violates the First Amendment's Establishment clause. Public schools cann ot be called upon to do the work of the church-
PB
I have read many books by our Jewish brothers, survivors of the Holocaust or those who lost many family members in the Holocaust. Simon Wisenthal, Elie Weisel, Abraham Heschel. Dispite experiencing horrendous atrocities they mave gone on and found meaning and purpose in life and have been transformed by their relationship with GOD. I could hardly say that the statement" A life without Christ is a meaningless existance vulnerable to any evil that might enter such a mind." applies to any of them. Their writings personally affected me to such a degree that it began my own quest for a relationship with GOD. I can only say that is good! The persistance of feelings like that in the Christian community serves to splinter relations with good faithful people of GOD. That does not resonnate with the reconciliatory presence of Christ I see in the Gospels.
Are Wisenthal, Weisel, and Heschel Christians?
David
I found anonymous' statements so interesting that I took the time and researched Weisel, Heschel, and Wiesenthal. It appears as though they were not Christians. I may be wrong in this assumption, and I hope that I am wrong for their sake, but the assumption is consistent with the point that anonymous made; that is, their lives were meaningful without Christ.
Obviously they were meaningful to anonymous in their stated impact in his/her faith, and this may be a good thing. But, were their lives meaningful to God? This is the question we all must face in contemplating our existence.
Anonymous suggests that they had a relationship with God. Based on what evidence? Jesus said that He is the only way to God. How does a non-Christian bypass Jesus to have a relationship with God? Did God make an exception for the Jews? If so, why did'nt Jesus, a Jew, mention it? The evidence suggests that they did not have a relationship with God because they rejected God's grace and His gift of redemption by rejecting the Messiah. Can such lives be meaningful to God?
David
I've just read these comments and will be chiming in soon...It's Sunday morning ...and I'm getting ready for church!
My short response is that I too have been inspired in understanding God by individuals such as Heschel and Wiesel. I believe God's grace is greater than the limitations we humans set on God. I also have been inspired by the work of John XXIII in interfaith understanding......
Sorry so short an answer....
Will elaborate later...
PB
The point I was attempting to make Bob, and I apologize if it did not come across, has nothing to do with inspiration or meaning in the eyes of man, rather meaning/value to God. I myself have been moved by Godless men, but the question is not about us because our perspectives, feelings and opinions have no bearing whatsoever on what matters to God. Anonymous correctly identified Christ's reconciliatory work, for Christ is the only reconciliation between God and man. Jesus came, died and rose that we may be reconciled with God. Any "good" work done by anyone who rejects the reconciliation of Jesus is filthy rags to God because the "good" work was not done for Christ's glory, but for the glory/deification of man. I hope this adds clarification. I look forward to your thoughts.
Dave
I very much believe in my heart of hearts that these individuals were men of God and that their life has infinite value in the eyes of God as do ALL lives. I do belive that the TORAH- holy Jewish scripture provides a way to GOD and that theologically Jesus statements suggest that he too is a way to knowing god. I believe he is saying look at my life. Look at how I treat others look at how I treat the marginalized and the outcast. Do the same and you will know eternal life and you will know GOD. Again my reading of the Gospels would never include a picture of Jesus excluding ANYONE as a child of GOD. Your reading may differ and we may have to agree to disagree but I will cling to my hope that the love and mercy of GOD externds to
ALL individuals regardless of race creed, sexual orietation.
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