I invite you to join our conversation about the relationship of faith to daily life and to ask questions and voice opinions about religious issues. I also invite you to join us for Sunday worship at 10:45 at the Congregational Church of Union, UCC off of I-84 right near the Massachusetts line.
Pastor Bob
Sunday, July 13, 2008
YOUR INPUT...........
If you'd like me to address a topic of interest at church just post it here and I will do my best to respond.... Pastor Bob
10 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Is it true that homosexuals cannot go to heaven unless they stop being homosexuals?
This is a topic I have addressed in different ways at church and I will try to sum up:
We begin by saying that it is not our role or right to judge and evaluate who is or is not going to heaven. That is the underlying point. Whether one be heterosexual or homosexual, the important matter is the totality of one's life and the fundamental direction of that life. Ultimately, our task is to follow what we call the double great commandment: Love God and love our neighbor. In Mt 25:31-46, the judgment speaks not a word about sexual orientation. In the Sermon on the Mount ( see Mt 5-7), we are admonished to avoid judgment......lest we be judged. In all of our theology, the distinction is clear: We are created, not creator.... Hope this helps...
I never want to put limits on God's mercy and grace. Even at times when people say they reject God, they are not really rejecting God...instead they are reacting against the images of God they have been taught.
HOWEVER......pushing this point to its limits......I DO contend that it IS possible for a person to CHOOSE to live her/his life in a way in which in essence she/he HAS rejected God.
NONETHELESS.........the prime Scriptural reference for God's activity can be found in LK 15----the parable of the Prodigal Son. Once the son made but a SLIGHT move home, the father RAN OUT to greet him....
Our God is a God of grace and mercy and compassion......Our prayer is that we harden not OUR hearts...
I believe the first question is answered clearly in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."
Please note the admonition by God to "NOT BE DECEIVED" for God's word is crystal clear.
The good news is that sinners who see their sin as evil, call upon the Lord Jesus in repentance for forgiveness and receive Jesus as Lord of their lives will be saved. An unrepentant heart has not received salvation.
Please understand that I intend the tone of this response to be conversational, not argumentative..........
I honestly think that this is an area where those who seek to quote the Bible literally really get caught in a bind......With respect to this passage, we can't take Paul and his world view out of the equation. This includes the fact that he had far less knowledge than we about some aspects of human behavior. My suggestion is that God is far more capable of judging the human heart than any of us are!
To the response ' BUT IT'S IN THE BIBLE'.............so too are these comments, not from Paul, but Jesus:
GO SELL ALL YOU HAVE AND GIVE TO THE POOR
BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS..when someone strikes you on one cheek, turn the other as well....
I see very few Biblical literalists who have renounced private property or have lived the lifestyle espoused in ACTS that 'believers share all things in common.'
I see very few Biblical literalists who are PACIFISTS and who don't believe in fighting just wars. As a matter of fact, many I know are strong supporters of military interventions.
I haven't even touched upon the admonitions against eating shellfish and touching pigskin in Leviticus ( There goes the Super bowl!)
In writing, this all sounds harsh, I am sure, but the point is that ONE CANNOT BE A SELECTIVE BIBLICAL LITERALIST----
Sadly, in contemporary Christianity, those who are just LOVE to focus on the sexuality questions, in particular, homosexuality......
Please know that I was not picking on homosexuals in my 7/21 post; I was addressing the specific question about homosexuals that was posted on 7/14. Please also note that the scripture I shared included non-sexual sins as well as homosexuality.
I was "selective" in sharing 1Cor 6:9-10 because it clearly addressed the substance of the question from 7/14. As you know, there are many other scriptures which address sin and human depravity, however the question did not address any of the other sins you mentioned. Why would I address an issue that has nothing to do with the discussion chain?
What exactly is a "biblical literalist"? I ask because you appear to take offense at scripture references, except your own.
You are right in noting that the reference you used spoke of more than homosexuality. You ask a very fair question concerning what a Biblical literalist is. My response is that a person's a literalist who cites references from the Bible to prove a point with little attention to context,viewpoint of the writer, historical background of the text,science, or the text's relationship to other Scriptural texts, especially where they might contradict each other. A Biblical literalist also tends to make no hierarchical distinction between the words of Jesus and other words within the body of Scripture.
I am pleased to say that I cite Scripture and that I affirm Scripture as the Word of God. However, even in the passages I cited, I don't, for example, read Scripture to mean that you or I have to sell our houses right now nor that a person may never fight in a war. THOSE would be selective literal interpretations without regard either to context( Jesus was speaking in one case to one rich young man and in the other, was not pretending to be dealing with complex international issues )or the broader process of applying the truths of Scripture to the concrete ethical decision making we must do in seeking to live out our mission as Christians.
I hold to my position that most 'Bible believing' ( their self definition) Christians are more inclined to 'go literal' on the sexual stuff than they are on social justice and peace. Hope this clarifies...
Thanks for the clarity regarding "biblical literalist." I truly never saw the term before. I wholeheartedly share your view that scripture must be interpreted by other scripture within various contexts. I also believe that God's word is timeless in that it is as applicable today as when it was written; after all, human nature has not changed since Adam.
Regarding hierarchial distinctions, if it is true, as we believe, that scripture is the Word of God (i.e., God breathed) why would the words of Jesus be superior to the words of Moses or anyone else in scripture? Didn't Jesus (a.k.a., God) inspire/create all of scripture?
Thanks again for your comment...If Jesus IS Word Made Flesh as we believe, His words/deeds have to take precedent. He is the invisible made visible.....
10 comments:
Is it true that homosexuals cannot go to heaven unless they stop being homosexuals?
This is a topic I have addressed in different ways at church and I will try to sum up:
We begin by saying that it is not our role or right to judge and evaluate who is or is not going to heaven. That is the underlying point. Whether one be heterosexual or homosexual, the important matter is the totality of one's life and the fundamental direction of that life. Ultimately, our task is to follow what we call the double great commandment: Love God and love our neighbor. In Mt 25:31-46, the judgment speaks not a word about sexual orientation. In the Sermon on the Mount ( see Mt 5-7), we are admonished to avoid judgment......lest we be judged. In all of our theology, the distinction is clear: We are created, not creator....
Hope this helps...
Pastor Bob
What if a person dies without ever loving God as in the double great commandment? Can that person be saved?
I never want to put limits on God's mercy and grace. Even at times when people say they reject God, they are not really rejecting God...instead they are reacting against the images of God they have been taught.
HOWEVER......pushing this point to its limits......I DO contend that it IS possible for a person to CHOOSE to live her/his life in a way in which in essence she/he HAS rejected God.
NONETHELESS.........the prime Scriptural reference for God's activity can be found in LK 15----the parable of the Prodigal Son. Once the son made but a SLIGHT move home, the father RAN OUT to greet him....
Our God is a God of grace and mercy and compassion......Our prayer is that we harden not OUR hearts...
PB
I believe the first question is answered clearly in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."
Please note the admonition by God to "NOT BE DECEIVED" for God's word is crystal clear.
The good news is that sinners who see their sin as evil, call upon the Lord Jesus in repentance for forgiveness and receive Jesus as Lord of their lives will be saved. An unrepentant heart has not received salvation.
Libby
Please understand that I intend the tone of this response to be conversational, not argumentative..........
I honestly think that this is an area where those who seek to quote the Bible literally really get caught in a bind......With respect to this passage, we can't take Paul and his world view out of the equation. This includes the fact that he had far less knowledge than we about some aspects of human behavior. My suggestion is that God is far more capable of judging the human heart than any of us are!
To the response ' BUT IT'S IN THE BIBLE'.............so too are these comments, not from Paul, but Jesus:
GO SELL ALL YOU HAVE AND GIVE TO THE POOR
BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS..when someone strikes you on one cheek, turn the other as well....
I see very few Biblical literalists who have renounced private property or have lived the lifestyle espoused in ACTS that 'believers share all things in common.'
I see very few Biblical literalists who are PACIFISTS and who don't believe in fighting just wars. As a matter of fact, many I know are strong supporters of military interventions.
I haven't even touched upon the admonitions against eating shellfish and touching pigskin in Leviticus ( There goes the Super bowl!)
In writing, this all sounds harsh, I am sure, but the point is that ONE CANNOT BE A SELECTIVE BIBLICAL LITERALIST----
Sadly, in contemporary Christianity, those who are just LOVE to focus on the sexuality questions, in particular, homosexuality......
PB
PB,
Please know that I was not picking on homosexuals in my 7/21 post; I was addressing the specific question about homosexuals that was posted on 7/14. Please also note that the scripture I shared included non-sexual sins as well as homosexuality.
I was "selective" in sharing 1Cor 6:9-10 because it clearly addressed the substance of the question from 7/14. As you know, there are many other scriptures which address sin and human depravity, however the question did not address any of the other sins you mentioned. Why would I address an issue that has nothing to do with the discussion chain?
What exactly is a "biblical literalist"? I ask because you appear to take offense at scripture references, except your own.
Sincerely,
Libby
You are right in noting that the reference you used spoke of more than homosexuality. You ask a very fair question concerning what a Biblical literalist is. My response is that a person's a literalist who cites references from the Bible to prove a point with little attention to context,viewpoint of the writer, historical background of the text,science, or the text's relationship to other Scriptural texts, especially where they might contradict each other. A Biblical literalist also tends to make no hierarchical distinction between the words of Jesus and other words within the body of Scripture.
I am pleased to say that I cite Scripture and that I affirm Scripture as the Word of God. However, even in the passages I cited, I don't, for example, read Scripture to mean that you or I have to sell our houses right now nor that a person may never fight in a war. THOSE would be selective literal interpretations without regard either to context( Jesus was speaking in one case to one rich young man and in the other, was not pretending to be dealing with complex international issues )or the broader process of applying the truths of Scripture to the concrete ethical decision making we must do in seeking to live out our mission as Christians.
I hold to my position that most 'Bible believing' ( their self definition) Christians are more inclined to 'go literal' on the sexual stuff than they are on social justice and peace.
Hope this clarifies...
Thanks for engaging in this conversation..
Pastor Bob
Thanks for the clarity regarding "biblical literalist." I truly never saw the term before. I wholeheartedly share your view that scripture must be interpreted by other scripture within various contexts. I also believe that God's word is timeless in that it is as applicable today as when it was written; after all, human nature has not changed since Adam.
Regarding hierarchial distinctions, if it is true, as we believe, that scripture is the Word of God (i.e., God breathed) why would the words of Jesus be superior to the words of Moses or anyone else in scripture? Didn't Jesus (a.k.a., God) inspire/create all of scripture?
Libby
Thanks again for your comment...If Jesus IS Word Made Flesh as we believe, His words/deeds have to take precedent. He is the invisible made visible.....
PB
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