In my view, in light of the Connecticut State Supreme Court decision, it is important that Bill # 899 pass. I find it sad that so many religious groups are spending such time lobbying against this bill. There is NO THREAT to religious freedom involved here at all. If a priest or minister or his/her church does NOT allow same sex marriage, there is NO REQUIREMENT that he/she perform the ceremony.
The matter of justices of the peace and private businesses is a different one. A JP is required to carry out the laws of the state and a private business may NOT discriminate in its business practices e.g. a catering service cannot decide to reject business from interracial couples or from certain ethnic groups. Bill 899 codifies the Supreme Court decision and implements that which has been established by law.
The attempt to circumvent the law, so unsuccessful in the referendum for a constitutional convention, is a sad misuse of time by religious groups. Unfortunately, it also conveys the impression that these groups are quite comfortable with discriminatory policies in the name of religious doctrine. Sad....
20 comments:
fgsf
Your a pastor? God holds you more accountable because of your position in the church. If anyone is in your church they would be honoring God by leaving it immediately. You do not follow the bible or the teachings of Jesus Christ. We live in an age of deception and the last virtue of a degrading society is tolerance. God's plan for male and female relationships is quite clear. God would never put anything in your genes to cause you to sin.
I don't know what this means....
I really think this is an unfair statement. Saying I do not follow the teachings of Christ is a broad generalization. I am writing about public law in a democracy and pointing out that this law allows religious groups NOT to perform ceremonies uncomfortable to their consciences.
The American value of liberty, so precious to religious conservatives, ALLOWS people to do things others would not do-----Isn't that the basis for the anti gun control position taken by those who support the NRA interpretation of the Second amendment? I don't think conservatives are ready to stop people from smoking even if they might not smoke themselves....
This is about liberty in a democracy in which many opinions coexist....
Unfortunately, there are many on the religious right who elevate sexual issues to highest prominence....
Very interesting.....
Not sure I get it....
PB
Thanks for your reply!!
Your examples of gun control and smoking are not examples of legalizing sin as in gambling, abortion, pornography and homosexuality. Our government used to uphold Judeo/Christian values throughout our history.
George Washington believed that religion was an indispensible support for government. Separating the morality of our sick laws from God's law does not make us more free it just enslaves more people to sin and encourages the moral degradation of our society that we see today. As Timothy wrote the world will wax worse and worse.
Let's get to the bottom of your beliefs. Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Is homosexuality a sin? Are people born homosexual?
While I understand that the blog format allows anonymity, I also sense that it is pretty easy to hide behind it.....but I will be happy to respond....
First of all, if smoking is proven to cut life short and one freely chooses to smoke, well...going against God's creation ( one self) is problematic. My point is that liberty as understood within the framework of the US government ALLOWS for behavior others may deem immoral i.e. we are NOT a theocracy which codifies 'God's law' as public law. My comments were in the context of the constitutional grounds for CT Bill 899, a bill supported by some fairly conservative legislators as well as a fairly conservative Goverrnor.
The concern you express appears to center around some issues of personal morality with a particular emphasis on sexuality, though you do allude to gambling as well.
In responding to your questions, here's what I would say:
1. The best available evidence is that homosexual orientation is NOT a matter of choice.
2. The word 'inerrant' muddies the water and is a code word for those who wish to drum peopel out of the church whose interpretation does not fit their own.. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. As a Christian, I believe that it is through the Bible that God's ultimate Word, Jesus Christ, my Risen Savior, is revealed. I also believe that 'the Bible' has some factual inaccuracies ( note the generations listed in Matthew and Luke's respective genealogies)and that there are different theological positions operative within the Bible.
3. And now for the one you really want me to answer: IS HOMOSEXUALITY A SIN? If by that you mean being homosexual, no. If you are wondering whether certain homosexual OR heterosexual actions can be sinful...the answer would be yes. The moral issue is responsible sexual behavior based on fidelity and commitment as opposed to a utilitarian ethic, be one homosexual or heterosexual.
Last comment, one which I have addressed often: Why is homosexuality so large a moral issue for those who wish to define Christianity so narrowly? Is it about sexuality or is it the fear that if this issue goes, the Bible comes tumbling down? Don't worry...it's not about to do so....
Another way of puting it: Do you think God is as caught up in an anti homosexual agenda as some on the Religious Right?
PB
The debate over whether homosexuality is a choice versus the DNA makeup of a person is irrelevant with respect to sin. God's will for us is to submit our sinful desires under the power of His indwelling Spirit and overcome such temptations for our edification and His glory. This is an important component of sanctification in the life of believers. For example, I am a married heterosexual male. I'm wired as most guys are to be aroused by beautiful women; that is my nature. Because this is my nature, is it then moral for me to act on my desires and have sex with women other than my spouse. Well, God said no, it is immoral. God expects me to turn from such sinful desires and obey Him. My happiness, fulfillment, and perceived satisfaction count for nothing because God said no. If you buy the lie that homosexuality is not a behavioral choice, this example is applicable. God forbids homosexual sex, even in a monogamous relationship, and this truth is irrefutable. If someone desires to have sex with someone of the same gender, the moral response is to deny the desire. Regardless of one's sexual orientation, sexual sin as defined by our creator is forbidden.
There are no factual inaccuracies in God's Word and I seriously challenge anyone to prove it. Fair warning, many brilliant minds have died trying. The Bible was written under the inspiration of God. Can God be wrong? There have been human errors made in the translation of the original manuscripts, but the originals are faultless.
Homosexuality per se is a sin because it is indistinguishable from the desires of the person's heart. A heart enslaved to sexual sin cannot please God who views such a heart as an abomination. Sin is conceived in one's heart before it is manifested in the flesh. The Bible teaches that if I simply think about committing adultery, I am as guilty of adultery as if I actually committed the act.
True Christianity is defined exclusively in the Bible and it is manifested in the lives of believers through God's power. I would not be willing to stand before the creator of the universe and tell Him that His written instructions to us are too "narrow." I strongly suspect that anyone who truly believes this will not have that opportunity to challenge God in such a way.
David
David-
First of all, thanks for signing your name. We have an honest disagreement here over theological and Biblical matters. In your view, I am wrong. In my view, your perspective is fragile. That is not to say that it's not sincere or that you are anything but faithful to God.
It simply means that if something in your world view falls, faith can fall with it. My sense is that Christians with your perspective are so heavily emotionally invested in such matters as a 6 day creation, anti evolution perspective and many other bedrocks of Biblical faith that were anything ever to be proven inaccurate.......ALL OF FAITH would go down the river with it!
That's what is scary about religious literalism of any ilk.....
Thanks again for signing your name and God bless...
PB
Dear Bob,
Yet again we differ and your presumptions could not be further from the truth. Please understand that true faith is authored, perfected, and sustained by Jesus our sovereign God. True faith is rooted in God's Word with reverance and submissiveness. Nothing, not even Satan himself and all of life's circumstances, can diminish true faith. Nothing can take us from the Father's hands because God is sovereign.
Other faiths reside on shifting sands and will not stand. Such faiths are easily identifiable; they either reject God's Word altogether or pick and chose passages which comfort its unbelief; they reject other Bible passages which convict its unbelief and secular worldviews; they muddle through life without any real spiritual power; they reject God's calls for sacrificial love and holiness; and they ultimately reject the Lordship of Jesus.
The good news is that all who truly repent of their sins and call upon Jesus for mercy, grace, and forgiveness will receive true, lasting faith which will never perish, but grow by the Spirit of God for His glory.
Thanks for the opportunity to share.
David
David-
First of all, while these differences are clear, I am glad to be in dialogue. You are obviously a man of deep faith and very well read.
Here is my honest worry:
It is clear that people have used particular Biblical passages to justify the owning of slaves and the clear subjugation of women both in church and society. You know the Bible well enough to cite the specific passages to which I am referring.
Now, if believing that those passages are morally problematic makes sense, wouldn't someone who believes that every word from God's Word is to be taken as literal truth have a real dilemma?
Most people reject slavery and, at least in much of Western culture, area t least in the ballpark in terms of accepting the equality of women.
What happens to FAITH itself if the sources are subject to logical historical criticism?
I guess what I am saying is that even were i to see proof tomorrow that the world was not created in 6 days and that many of the stories ikn the Bible did NOT happen, because my faith is NOT based on this literal understanding, I will still believe in and trust God and my Risen Savior Jesus.
To make faith contingent upon a literal reading of a book, however inspired, is to limit the power of faith.
I hope you see this as a discussion among believers-
Bob
Bob and Dave,
My name is Bill and I worship in Manchester. I am your Mr. Anonymous. Thanks Dave for joining the discussion.
Thanks for answering my questions directly. Here are my responses.
1. What specific studies do you point to that show Homosexuality is genetic? Do you have a website or specific article on line that points to this? Would you trust one study when so many scientific studies could be conclusive in this area over the word of God?
Why would this one sin be genetic and not any of the others?
2. Though you point to Matthew and Luke genealogies Dave states well about the truth of God's word. There are several thousand prophetic statements in the bible, all of which have been fulfilled or will be in the future. God's accuracy rate is 100% as we have His word all these centuries later. The statistical probability leaves no doubt that only mind who could have written this book is God himself.
3. Your errant theology allows for Homosexuals to sit in the pews of your church Sunday after and Sunday thinking they are okay with the God. You say you are showing compassion but you are only leading them straight to the gates of hell. God is love but he is also judge. He cannot turn a blind eye to his own laws. You worry that the so called religious right makes homosexuality a big deal. It is when churches accept the sin and do not tell the sinner the truth of God's word. Instead you distort it and call it tolerance. For this you will be judged.
I urge you to trust God's holy word completely and lean not on your own understanding.
Bill
I guess I am blown away and saddened by how much negative energy has been expended on this issue ..... Really I think that is about all I can say
It's not negative energy it's a spiritual warfare. I am simply standing up for God's word and His truth. Unfortunately many denominations want to deviate from God's Holy word. I even see it in my church and denomination.
God has called us to be salt and light in this world. A Christian knows that this world is not his or her permanent home. We are not to blend this world's philosophies with God's.
Colossians 2:8 states, "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophies, which depends upon human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ."
The Church of Christ has adopted so much of the world's philosophies
that it does not shine the light of His truth. We believe we can circumvent God's laws by trusting in so called science (evolution as an example) and our own logic. When we begin to worship our own thoughts we make them our idols. We then become our own gods with our own sense of morals.
If one soul reads these comments and is further influenced to search the truth of the scriptures about God's view of homosexuality so they will not be further deceived by any pastor or denomination then this time was not spent in vain. All for God's kingdom and glory.
Bill
In this comment and others, the issue of God's judgment comes up, in particular you warn me that I will be judged by God with the strong implication that I am in trouble BECAUSE I contend that homosexual relationships are not sinful solely because they are homosexual. Likewise, you argue that practicing homosexuals are in deep trouble with respect to eternal life.
First of all, I want you to know that I am deeply aware of the force and power of God's JUDGMENT. I believe that as someone complicit in an affluent lifestyle compared to most of the world, I have to answer to God regarding how seriously I have taken the words found in Matthew to 'give to the LEAST OF THESE'.
I fully acknowledge that in light of God's eternal love, I stand woefully short. Yet, I also understand that in those places in my life IN WHICH I AM JUDGMENTAL, it is THERE that I shall be judged as well.
I wish to challenge you theologically on your use of God's judgment. As an evangelical Christian, you would most certainly believe that one is SAVED through faith in Christ i.e. one is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH THROUGH GRACE, a distinct Christian belief.
The notion that one's salvation comes BY FAITH and not works or RIGHT BELIEF renders some of your judgment argumentation rather moot.
Allow me to get practical:
A practicing homosexual comes to Christ at a Billy Graham crusade. Is he or is he not saved EVEN if he were to enter into a same sex marriage?
This all raises several more questions:
1. Does his/her SALVATION depend on BEHAVIOR? If you answer in the affirmative, is this not works righteousness?
2. Does certain behavior ANNUL the CONVERSION experience?
In saying he or she is NOT saved, what are you saying about the conversion experience and all of the Biblical allusions to conversion? If you say YES, are you therefore saying that there is NO relationship between immoral behavior and potential salvation?
Here is my take..........from theological principle and just knowing people....
A person, be he/she heterosexual or homosexual, may feel a spiritual void or emptiness, not necessarily because of sexuality but possibly other factors. That person may find health and wholeness and peace in accepting Jesus Christ as Savior.
In the case of the homosexual, this acceptance of Christ won't take away the desire to enter into intimate relationship with someone who happens to be homosexual, any more than it'll take away sexual inclination in the heterosexual.
In my view, if the homosexual, in a committed, faithful relationship engages in sexual relations, that does not render her/his ACT OF FAITH null and void.......
Taking sex out of this........We care all capable of sin in many different ways.....
IF WE SIN......we do not necessarily lose eternal life, do we?
I guess I am just asking evangelicals here to slow down before accusing me of sending gays to hell or threatening me with damnation......
Let me go back to the beginning.......Judgment IS real.....This judgment is REAL EVERY DAY....
As human beings, as beings who are NOT GOD........we live under the power of sin everyday......
Sin is reality....but God's grace to us is greater.....regardless of sexual orientation...
PB
Hi Bob,
David here again. The point I was attempting to make previously is that my faith is not contingent upon a literal reading of the Bible. It is not contingent upon anything. By the grace of God it simply is, and I will never lose it.
My faith is not determined by my understanding of the Bible; my understanding of the Bible comes from my faith. Before God revealed Himself to me through faith, the Bible was foolishness to me. Faith produced in me a holy reverance and awe for the Bible. My literal interpretation of scripture is spiritual, not fleshly. If it was of the flesh, it would still be foolishness to me. For example, the Bible tells us literally that Jesus lived a sinless life, was crucified and died, and was resurrected from death. My literal understanding of that Bibical account would be meaningless if it was not for the Holy Spirit confirming its truth and revealing the importance of that truth within me.
I hope this helps clarify my point.
David
David-
I deeply appreciate this response. While we would still dispute matters of Biblical interpretation, you also make clear that the basis of your faith is the EXPERIENCE of God's grace. That becomes the starting point for your theology. This is an important point.
Again, when time permits, I can comment on the relationship between this faith and how the Bible speaks in our lives, but I appreciate how you make clear what drives your faith.
This is really helpful in this dialogue...
Thanks,
Bob
Here's a more developed response to David:
I greatly appreciate how you identify your personal faith and your experience of that faith as the starting point for your understanding of the Bible.
My area of difference is that, while I believe the Bible both reveals God AND the reality of God's presence in Jesus Christ, I, at the same time, believe that, written by human beings, it contains both factual errors and reflects human beings' INCOMPLETE UNDERSTANDING of God's Will, thus containing passages that have been used to justify slavery, violence toward women and now, in the current context, an unfortunate approach to human sexuality.
Where we differ is that I do not believe that FAITH in itself takes away from a thorough reading of the Bible.
I repeat: The Bible REVEALS GOD---God in history, God IN JESUS CHRIST. I believe in God. I believe Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior of my life. I believe in THE HOLY SPIRIT, the LORD and GIVER of life. I affirm the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds. I do so gladly.
None of this takes away from being able to read the Bible contextually and discerning the Will of God from human interpretation...
Thanks again...
PB
PB,
This is a constructive and interesting discussion. I am puzzled by how you can accept certain scripture as true and others as false. If you believe error exists, how can you know with certainty which scripture to believe? Why would God place that responsibility on us?
I believe the revelation of God was captured in the writings of scripture by means of "inspiration." This has more to do with the process by which God revealed Himself than the fact of His self-revelation. "All scripture is inspired by God..."(2Ti 3:16) makes the claim, Peter explains the process, "...know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2Pe 1:20,21). By this means, the Word of God was protected from human error in its original record by the ministry of the Holy Spirit (Dt 18:18; Mt 1:22). A section of Zec 7:12 describes it most clearly, "...the law and the words which the Lord of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets." This ministry of the Spirit extended to both the part (the words) and to the whole in the original writings.
God wrote the Bible by the hands of men He selected. How else can one explain its consistent theme from Genesis to Revelation; writings which were penned over a period of 1,500 years through the pens of almost 40 writers in three languages?
David
PB,
I just read your response to Bill dated 4/30 and I'd like to offer a comment. I firmly believe that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, and nothing we do can separate us from the love of God once we've been born again. I also firmly believe that true salvation is evidenced in the lives of those born again in holiness through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.
You offered a hypothetical example of a homosexual person who commits to a homosexual union after walking an isle at a Billy Graham crusade. You asked whether that person would lose his/her salvation because of the union. I contend that such an act is evidence that the person was not truly born again. Therefore, salvation would not be lost because it was never acquired and one cannot lose what one does not have. It is not possible for a truly born again person to enter into a homosexual union just as it is impossible for a true child of God to become a serial murderer.
Walking an isle, reciting a prayer, intellectually acknowledging the Lordship of Jesus Messiah, does not bring about salvation per se. True salvation is a supernatural event in which sinners see their sin as God sees it and are so crushed by the reality of their sin that they genuinely cry for God's overflowing mercy and grace in true repentance.
If there is no repentance, there is no new life. Does this mean that we stop sinning after we are saved? I wish it was true, but it is not (just read Paul's letters). There is a critical difference between an unsaved person who practices a sinful lifestyle and a new Christian who pursues a holy lifestyle, but stumbles along the way. The difference is the unsaved did not turn from the flesh and the saved person truly repented and turned. Through God's sanctification, the saved person will sin less as he/she grows in Christ, but there is no unbroken, habitual pattern of sin.
The great Congretional theologian Johnathan Edwards wrote about false conversion during his day. He coined the term "holy affections" in distinguishing the redeemed from the unredeemed. I encourage everyone to read his writings.
David
As I understand this, David, you are saying that one becomes aware of sin and in that awareness is compelled to turn to Christ. I can't argue with that...
My point of contention would be the connection between sinfulness and homosexuality. As you know, I've written extensively on that. I think I understand your counterpoint that if God's calling it sin in the Bible, then sin it is.
This comes back to a difference over Biblical interpretation or hermeneutic and my belief that there is a hierarchy of principles within the Scripture, a position taken by many, including Martin Luther. I can go into that in more detail also...
By the way, I agree about raeding Jonathan Edwards....
Thanks...
PB
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